535-07-5248 and Wife

I agree.....she's a hottie !!

Two more of Lange's photos of Thomas Cave (neither quite so interesting visually as the one here) came up via the LOC's "Neighboring Call Numbers" browser: LC-USF34-020536-E and LC-USF34-020538-E. In the second of these, Cave appears to be deliberately displaying his Social Security number tattoo. Perhaps he was a true believer in the promises that it represented. Other photos from this group of 30 identify the bean harvest locale as "Oregon, Marion County, near West Stayton."

He reminds me of Errol Flynn. Maybe it's the mustache?

Not sure if this fits the bill, but I'd nominate this pic for the Handsome Rakes gallery. I'll bet people walked up to him and told him he looked like Errol Flynn. His girl is on the pretty side as well, though I think we have pictures aplenty in the pretty girls gallery!

There are some historic photographs -- and they are rare indeed -- that somehow manage to look as if they were shot in the present, just yesterday. This is one such. I'm not speaking of the people exactly but the manner in which they enter the camera. Not all of Dorothea Lange's (or other commercial photographers of any era) manage to convey such "magic" but this one does. It took my breath away when I first saw it (elsewhere) last month.

This is one of my favorite pictures I've seen here on Shorpy. For some reason, these two make me think of Rooster and Lily from "Annie."

Thomas Cave, 1912-1980

You mention that you don't think the tattoo was put on with a machine. As a tattooer for 17 years I can pretty much assure you that it was. That kind of serif style and the continuity of size would be impossible for a novice to achieve using a hand-poke method.

Thanks for the info Kate. Maybe he and the woman in the picture weren't really married. Interesting, and I agree about the "premarital sex and cohabitation". I couldn't believe my ears when I finally was told the stories about my family ;o)

My dad used to do that with his cigarettes too. He never said why however, but now I know :)

I think Urs is also an old Celtic name. I still don't get why he doesn't show up in the 1930 census. Anyone on the list in Multnomah, Oregon? He's buried at Willamette National Cemetery in Portland: Col-2, Row 382, Site B. Maybe they have a next of kin on record to whom the picture can be shown? His 1980 death cert. lists an Annie as spouse, but his enlistment record lists him as divorced with dependents. Don't know if the woman is Annie (before they got married) or the former Mrs. Cave. Every generation thinks it invented premarital sex and cohabitation. In the 1920s and 1930s, it was pretty common in all strata of society. Sometimes in the Depression, the especially hard-hit would not bother to get a formal divorce; people would just leave.

He also might have been a Wobbly. 1935 is kind of late, but they were always strongest in the West: mining and timber.

Another thing bothers me about his "identity": Thomas Cave's enlistment record has him at 5'6" and 156 pounds. I know there are ways to judge height of sitting people with software, but that's beyond me at the moment.

My father used to cup his cigarettes in his hand until he quit in the 1980s, "so the snipers couldn't get a fix." That's why it's "unlucky" to light 3 cigarettes with one flame, so says my Vietnam Vet husband. Remember the old WWII movies, "smoke-em if you got-em, boys." I think I also remember my Dad saying something about the tobacco killing hunger in the Depression. Dad was a tenant farmer 'til he went off to war. Pregnant women were encouraged to smoke to stop morning sickness. Tobacco use was ubiquitous. The Red Cross even handed out cigarettes in the 1931 drought.

Best,
Kate

Thanks Dave, that's what I was trying to say. Mind goes blank ever so often and I use the first word I can think of. Old age and drugs are he-- on a mind.

My father once told me that he started smoking during the Depression because it killed his appetite. You know how some folks worry that if they quit smoking they'll gain weight. He smoked so there would be more food for his brothers and sisters. Unfortunately he like his father and several of his uncles, brothers and sister fell victim to emphysema

The name “Urs” is common in Switzerland, but not in Austria or Germany. Only the female equivalent, Ursula, is quite common here.

Touché. I wish my students picked up such things.

Kate

[Imagine a fact-checking school of piranhas and you basically have our readership. (Kidding!) - Dave]

>> As a professor of history, the LOC uploaded the highest res photo

The LOC is a professor of history? Hmm.

Hi Dave:

As a professor of history, the LOC uploaded the highest res photo on my request. The LOC librarian examined the neg with a magnifying glass and could get no greater detail. Unfortunately, writing a 9 with an exaggerated bottom hook was common handwriting practice in the '30s (as it in in Western Europe today). Also, the tattoo was not doen with a gun. A 4 with an open top would have been easier to do than a curved 9. If it is indeed a 4, the tattooist made the job harder on himself by closing the top of the 4. If you notice, the straight lines in the 3 and 7 are more distinct than the curved lines. Quite honestly, it looks like my Dad's handwriting (1924-1991, US Army 1942-1946). In some ways, we cannot believe our eyes when looking at old pictures. We have to see them in their historical context.

Also, the the letters are SSA not SSN. They stand for Social Security Administration. SSN did not become a common acronym until after World War II. The first SSNs were issued in 1935, a year before this picture. The New Deal agencies were referred to back then as "the alphabet agencies" and then "alphabet soup." For example, Lange, a photographer working for the RA, had previously worked for FERA (forerunner of today's FEMA) and later the FSA, took the picture under the auspices of the USDA. Before the New Deal, government was much smaller, and, saving the USDA, these "alphabetics" (as they were also called) did not exist. There were dozens.

For a great read on the Depression (that assumes no prior knowledge of the era), I recommend Robert McElvaine, _The Great Depression: America, 1929-1941_.

We have to take all the facts, inside and outside the image, before making sound historical conclusions. But, engaging in ths kind of dialogue is the best way to learn more of our history. I hope that looking at these amazing artifacts of our national past sparks a greater interest in the history, one that is not dependent on memorization of dates and names (which I hate too). History is about feelings and motivations and all manner of human endeavor. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this picture with you.

BTW, if anyone thinks he is an ancestor (his middle name was Urs), is the names "Urs" a common name in your family? I think it might be German. Giving a mother's maiden name as a middle name, or the first name of a parent or grandparent, was common practice in the early 20th c. Because "Urs" is textspeak for "yours," I can't do too much with a quick Google search.

Best,
Kate

Unfortunately I don't have a picture to prove it, but he looks like my brother in law at that age. Rich is Greek and Irish. I wonder what nationality Thomas Cave was.

[His nationality was American. Ethnicity? - Dave]

The TIFF is already on the LOC site for anyone to download. Here's the number in question. 535-07-5248. Maybe you are not using the highest resolution file available. (There are two.)

I asked the Library of Congress to upload the .tiff file so we could read his SSN. It could be a 9, not a 4. The LOC librarian took out the original negative but could not be sure either. I agree, Thomas Cave makes more sense because the other option, Clarence Horn, was born in 1917. That man does not look 22. But, often writing history comes down to this kind of reasoning and, hopefully, corroboration.

Unfortunately, Thomas Cave's 1942 enlistment document lists him as "divorced, with dependents." That might not be accurate for a whole host of reasons, especially he does not show up on the 1930 Federal Census. I'd like to believe she was the "Annie" listed as his spouse on his death certificate. History doesn't kill romance; it just makes sure it's true.

Tobacco was a standard ration in the Depression. Do note the date of death, however. He died at 67. That said, there is no dress rehearsal for life. Times were tough, in a way we can only begin to imagine today. Scurvy: can you give me lists of those tatooed numbers or maybe let me interview you about the people you knew?

If anyone wants to know more about the conditions in which this man and woman lived during the Depression, please do not hesitate to ask. I am teaching the photo tomorrow and am introducing my students to the kind of enterprising research and insight I've seen reflected in this list. Bravo. (And yes, he's hot--my students agree).

Dr. Kate Sampsell-Willmann
Assistant Professor of American History and Photographic Historian
Georgetown University
School of Foreign Service in Qatar
ksw29@georgetown.edu

Wow. She's kind of hot too. Well, I am not showing proper respect for history either.

I think that it was a product of responsibility. People back then were given greater responsibility at a much younger age and had a lot more expectations back then.

Not thrilled that so much is revealed with a SSN search. Somebody is probably getting a credit card in his name right about now.

It was a inexpensive pleasure back then

A treat, indeed!
Wish we could interview this couple now and ask them about those times.

I'll bet they'd say it wasn't such a bad time of their lives.
They had each other...

Perhaps we people have forgotten what's really important in life.

Maybe it was all the smoking those people did that aged them? Imagine being flat broke, having to live under a tarp, and still spending money on tobacco!

Times were harder back then, and arguably so were the people. I'm struck by how much older than I he looks as we are both the same age.

Makes me wonder if he had a great head start on life experiences at 27, and I'm lazily slow-poking my way through life. Maybe I should just count myself blessed to live in such times of relative ease and prosperity.

Actually, it probably has more to do with the fact that he could actually grow facial hair at this point in his life...but I think I'm going to stick with the "harder times" thesis : )

Well now, he's obviously a Dapper Dan man!

I think he looks more like a younger Treat Williams.

www.movievillains.com/images/xanderdrax.jpg

THOMAS CAVE
born: 02 Jul 1912
death: Jun 1980
last residence: Portland, Multnomah, OR
535-07-5248

Oregon Death Index
Name: Thomas Urs Cave
Spouse: Annie
Birth: 1912
Death: dd mm 1980 - Multnomah

U.S. World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938-1946
Name: Thomas U Cave
Birth: 1912
Military: 29 Oct 1942 - Portland, Oregon
Residence: Oregon, Multnomah, Oregon

U.S. Veterans Gravesites
Name: Cave, Thomas U Thomas U Cave
Birth: 2 Jul 1912
Death: 4 Jun 1980
Military: 12 Nov 1942
Military: 4 Feb 1946

There are just so many awesome things about this photo. The elegant beauty of the woman. The handsome man with pipe. The tattoo on the arm with his Social Security number of all things. Then to be able to search them out by using his social and modern technology. It's just a treat!

What a babe! :)

They're both very attractive! The Depression was tough, even for the good-lookin'..
:)

They managed to keep clean and she looked pretty good

He bears an uncanny resemblance to Pierce Brosnan when he as in The Matador. Or, I guess I should say, Pierce Brosnan bears an uncanny resemblance to him.

See for yourself:

http://tinyurl.com/2gga3j

You can search the Social Security Death Index (available at Ancestry.com, among other places) and it will tell you dob/dod plus last residence. You can also generate the form to send to the Social Security office to request (purchase) a copy of the original application which will give a little more information.

I'm impressed with how well groomed they both are. Sure he's got stains on his trousers, but his hair is combed and (except for the mustache) he is clean-shaven. In the background, his wife is wearing what looks like a fairly stylish dress and her pose looks like it could have come out of a fashion magazine. They certainly do not look like the tired and downtrodden people we've seen in other pictures. Makes me wonder what he did before and how long they've been following the harvest.

[He was, as the caption says, a lumber worker. - Dave]

Hey- Even grandpas were sexy in their day!

He's my brother's namesake, which makes me wonder if we're related. Can you get more information from Social Security numbers, other than name and d.o.b./d.o.d.? I'm Australian, so I don't know anything about the system.

[The dates and place of death (Portland, Oregon) are the only information given. - Dave]

no slouch either as long as you're on the subject. I'm loving this series of Dust Bowl era pics. I have known a few people who back then had their number on their arm upside down so they could read it.

Wow. He's kind of hot. I am really not showing the proper respect for history.